4 Advice to Choose a turn mill machining

Material?
Size of parts?
Family Of parts?
Qty?
Budget?
What can you fit on the floor?
Brand Preference if any?
CAM software?
Tooling Budget?

These are some of the basic questions came up with on the fly

Material could be aluminum, titanium, 17-4, 316, nitronic, Invar or other stuff.

Parts would fit inside a 2" diameter bar.

Not really able to make part Families. I'm looking at anywhere between 15-60 of each part, with maybe 100 different parts when done.

Budget is not determined, but less is better within reason.

Not sure what will fit on the floor, because I'm not 100% sure where the floor will be yet.

Brand preference- I don't think Haas has what I'm looking for, Doosan and DMG appear to have what I'm after, don't know about Okuma or others.

CAM software is currently Surfcam, both Traditional and re-branded Edgecam. That can change if necessary.

Tooling budget is the same as the machine budget. I currently use ER collets so it would be convenient to stay with that, but I am willing to do whatever is best for what I need to get done. We had a pretty good discussion on this topic last week.
http://www.practicalmachinist.com/v...ex-vs-okuma-multus-vs-doosan-puma-smx-/


Understand that the more complicated the machine becomes, the more fragile it becomes as well.

Personally, I think a Y-axis, live-tool lathe makes a lot of sense for the right parts. However, I'm not a huge fan of sub-spindles (on live-tool lathes, or B-axis mill-turns), except in a few specific cases.

If you have parts that have milled/drilled features on both sides of the part where the radial orientation is absolutely critical, then the sub-spindle makes sense.

But for general work, I don't think the sub-spindle makes a lot of sense, as it makes your setups much more complicated, and overall cycle times longer. And you almost always have one spindle just sitting there doing nothing... If you have a job that's going to run unattended, then the longer cycle times won't kill you much. But for general work, I think you could move more parts through the machine, by running all the parts thru the OP10 setup, then flipping the parts & setup and running them all thru the OP20...

If you have a twin-spindle, twin turret machine, then that's a completely different animal. Two spindles always in cut - that's a very strong case to try and punch holes in.

Citizen is also doing some really cool things with their single turret, twin-spindle machines, using their superimposed-turning function. They kind of blur the lines between a single turret machine, and a real twin spindle, twin turret machine. It might be the ticket for your 2" & under parts?
Miyano BNA-42 MSY - YouTube

But if you're going to be doing lots of compound-angle features, then you almost have to go with a B-axis machine. I would not consider them for *heavy* milling though - if a 2" indexable cutter - 3" face mill max - won't do it, then I wouldn't try it in one of these machines...

We had a pretty good discussion on this topic last week.
http://www.practicalmachinist.com/v...ex-vs-okuma-multus-vs-doosan-puma-smx-/


Understand that the more complicated the machine becomes, the more fragile it becomes as well.

Personally, I think a Y-axis, live-tool lathe makes a lot of sense for the right parts. However, I'm not a huge fan of sub-spindles (on live-tool lathes, or B-axis mill-turns), except in a few specific cases.

If you have parts that have milled/drilled features on both sides of the part where the radial orientation is absolutely critical, then the sub-spindle makes sense.

But for general work, I don't think the sub-spindle makes a lot of sense, as it makes your setups much more complicated, and overall cycle times longer. And you almost always have one spindle just sitting there doing nothing... If you have a job that's going to run unattended, then the longer cycle times won't kill you much. But for general work, I think you could move more parts through the machine, by running all the parts thru the OP10 setup, then flipping the parts & setup and running them all thru the OP20...

If you have a twin-spindle, twin turret machine, then that's a completely different animal. Two spindles always in cut - that's a very strong case to try and punch holes in.

Citizen is also doing some really cool things with their single turret, twin-spindle machines, using their superimposed-turning function. They kind of blur the lines between a single turret machine, and a real twin spindle, twin turret machine. It might be the ticket for your 2" & under parts?
Miyano BNA-42 MSY - YouTube

But if you're going to be doing lots of compound-angle features, then you almost have to go with a B-axis machine. I would not consider them for *heavy* milling though - if a 2" indexable cutter - 3" face mill max - won't do it, then I wouldn't try it in one of these machines...

Maaan that Miyano video totally fried my brain (and the one that follows it is even more mind bending), and made my left eye and right eye wander independently like Chameleon. I think Only a Jashley could program that... That's wild.

Not clear about this "If you have parts that have milled/drilled features on both sides of the part where the radial orientation is absolutely critical, then the sub-spindle makes sense."...

You mean for a really long part + steady rest or two and twin spindles or transfer of part from main spindle to counter spindle? Mill turns are great on the right parts, your run sizes are small, setups going to bleed you dry. A live tool lathe is not any thing like as fast as a lathe turn and separate mill cell, simply the mill turn does one process then the other, while seperate machines can be running at the same time. Yep it needs a operator, but your not going to get all that much non operator free time on thoes low runs any how depending on part complexity.

If the parts easily griped - transferable from a lathe to a mill that would always be my preferred way, unless the milling across your part family is similar enough that the same tools do a lot of your 100 diffrent bits. If its just you or if a operator is available would also need to play into the decision. I gotta say thanks to each and every person who has responded so far. All of the responses have given some kind of positive insight into what I've got going on. After reading through them, a lathe with live tooling and Y axis capability sounds like something that will do the job. I won't need 10,000 doohickies each week, so high speed and heavy cuts won't be priorities in my search.
A school I work with is about to get a Doosan LYNX 220 LSYC, so if I end up with one like that I will have a good source of knowledge and knowledgeable operators close by.

"Quote Originally Posted by cameraman View Post
Not clear about this 'If you have parts that have milled/drilled features on both sides of the part where the radial orientation is absolutely critical, then the sub-spindle makes sense.'...

You mean for a really long part + steady rest or two and twin spindles or transfer of part from main spindle to counter spindle?"

I think that refers to a part with features on both ends that must be concentric to each other. I may have parts like that to do, so a sub-spindle will probably be in the mix if we go the mill/turn route.

As for Deadly Kitten's drawing request, I can't post drawings that don't exist yet. I probably couldn't post them anyway if they did. I'm currently trying to anticipate what I can do to make parts I haven't seen yet and can only make educated guesses about. I figure saying many of them could fit inside a 2" round bar, and a majority of them could fit inside a 3" bar is a safe bet since they'll be satellite parts, where the smaller they are the better.

I need to maintain normal milling capacity for the parts too big to come out of the previously mentioned bar sizes, so not having second ops on the mill would be great.

Mazatrol? Hmm. If I can get the same functionality out of a different machine I will not choose to make learning how to program a Mazak part of my list of things I need to get done. If I have to I will, but I'm trying to minimize my list of new things that require a lot of time to learn.

Again, thanks to everybody who has responded, and please keep them coming. I bet I'm not the only person who will get some value out of this thread. "Quote Originally Posted by cameraman View Post
Not clear about this 'If you have parts that have milled/drilled features on both sides of the part where the radial orientation is absolutely critical, then the sub-spindle makes sense.'...

You mean for a really long part + steady rest or two and twin spindles or transfer of part from main spindle to counter spindle?"

I think that refers to a part with features on both ends that must be concentric to each other. I may have parts like that to do, so a sub-spindle will probably be in the mix if we go the mill/turn route.


Not just concentric, but also mill/drill features that need to be positioned with relation to one another angularly. Imagine drilling 3 equally spaced holes. Then grab the part with the subspindle. Now, on the back face, you have to drill 3 more holes that are equally spaced between the first 3 (a bolt hole pattern that is offset by exactly 60 degrees). Drawings will often say that the angular positioning of features on one side is not critical with respect to features on the other side. If it does not say this you may have to make sure that, if the first three holes are at 12, 4, and 8 o'clock, then the 3 on the other side have to be at 2, 6, and 10 o'clock on the same clock face. The part might not function if the second 3 holes are not drilled with respect to the position of the first 3. So, without a subspindle, you must take great pains to locate the first three holes when you put the piece back up for the second operation (maybe a dowel pin in the jaws or something).

When it comes to selecting the right CNC turn/mill machine for your job shop, several factors need to be carefully evaluated to ensure that you’re making the right investment for your specific needs. Here’s a detailed guide to help you make an informed decision.

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1. Understand the Requirements of Your Job Shop

Before you start looking at specific machines, it’s essential to clearly understand the nature of the work that your shop handles. Are you producing high-volume runs of standardized parts, or is your focus on low-volume, high-precision components? The type of work you do will dictate the specifications of the CNC turn/mill machine you should consider.

- Complexity of Parts: If you’re dealing with complex parts that require both turning and milling in a single setup, then a multi-axis turn/mill machine with live tooling and multiple turrets is ideal. The more complex the geometry, the more flexibility you’ll need in terms of axes and tool positioning.

- Volume of Production: High-volume production may require a machine with automation features such as bar feeders, automatic part catchers, or robotic integration. On the other hand, low-volume, custom parts might benefit more from machines with easy setup and programming features to minimize downtime between jobs.

2. Key Features to Look for in a CNC Turn/Mill Machine

Once you understand your shop’s specific needs, consider the following key features in a CNC turn/mill machine:

- Number of Axes: Most turn/mill machines will have at least three axes (X, Y, and Z), but more complex machines can have five or more. The additional axes allow for more flexibility in part geometry and reduce the need for multiple setups, improving accuracy and reducing cycle times.

- Spindle Configuration: Machines come with different spindle configurations, including single-spindle, twin-spindle, and multi-spindle setups. Twin-spindle machines allow you to perform operations on both the front and back sides of the part without manual intervention, improving efficiency.

- Live Tooling: Live tooling allows your machine to perform milling operations in addition to turning. Machines with live tooling capabilities can significantly expand your production capabilities by allowing drilling, tapping, and milling in a single setup.

- Turrets: The number of tool turrets and the number of tools each turret can hold are critical factors. More turrets and larger tool capacity mean less downtime for tool changes and more flexibility in machining complex parts.

3. Consider the Machine’s Build and Durability

A CNC machine is a long-term investment, so it’s essential to choose one that is built to last. Look for machines with robust construction and high-quality materials to withstand the demands of production.

- Base Construction: The base should be made from high-quality cast iron or a similar material to dampen vibrations and provide stability during machining. A stable base ensures better accuracy and prolongs the life of your cutting tools.

- Slideways and Bearings: Ensure that the slideways and bearings are precision-engineered and durable. Linear guideways are more common in high-speed applications, while box ways provide greater rigidity for heavy-duty machining.

4. Evaluate the Control System

The control system of your CNC turn/mill machine plays a significant role in its usability and efficiency. Look for a machine that offers a user-friendly interface, but also has advanced features to handle complex operations.

- Ease of Programming: The control system should support various programming methods, such as conversational programming for simple parts and G-code programming for more complex operations. Some systems even offer CAD/CAM integration, making it easier to move from design to production.

- Advanced Features: Look for control systems that offer advanced features like tool path simulation, collision detection, and remote monitoring. These features can save time, reduce errors, and provide valuable insights into your machine’s performance.

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5. Automation Capabilities

Automation is increasingly becoming a standard feature in modern CNC turn/mill machines. Depending on your production needs, you might want to look for machines that offer:

- Robotic Integration: Machines with robotic integration can automate part loading and unloading, reducing labor costs and minimizing cycle times.

- Bar Feeders: A bar feeder can automate the loading of raw material into the machine, which is especially useful for high-volume production.

- Parts Catchers and Conveyors: Automating the handling of finished parts can streamline your production process and reduce the need for manual intervention.

6. Service and Support

After-sales service and support are crucial factors in your decision-making process. A reliable supplier will offer:

- Training: Ensure that your team is adequately trained on how to use the machine. Good suppliers will offer comprehensive training programs.

- Technical Support: Machines occasionally experience downtime, and when that happens, you’ll need quick and efficient technical support. Check that the manufacturer or distributor provides reliable and timely support.

- Spare Parts Availability: Ensure that replacement parts are readily available and that they won’t take too long to be delivered. Downtime waiting for parts can be costly.

7. Budget Considerations

CNC turn/mill machines can be a significant investment, so it’s essential to consider your budget carefully. While it might be tempting to go for the lowest-priced option, this can sometimes be a false economy if the machine doesn’t meet your production needs or has high maintenance costs.

- Initial Cost vs. Long-Term ROI: Evaluate the machine’s initial cost against its potential long-term return on investment (ROI). Consider factors like increased production speed, reduced labor costs, and improved precision.

- Financing Options: Many suppliers offer financing options or leasing arrangements. These can help spread the cost over time and make it easier to invest in a higher-quality machine that will provide better ROI.

Conclusion

Choosing the right CNC turn/mill machine for your job shop is a crucial decision that can significantly impact your productivity and profitability. By carefully considering your shop’s specific needs, evaluating the key features of different machines, and balancing cost with long-term ROI, you can make an informed decision that will benefit your business for years to come.

Remember, the right machine isn’t just an investment in equipment – it’s an investment in the future of your shop.

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